Opinions of stakeholders on the modality for
tackling the menace of corruption vary. In this
interview, Yusuf Ali (SAN) maintains that only
death penalty can curb corruption among public
officers.
Excerpts:
During the last conference of the Nigeria Bar
association (NBA), President Muhammadu
Buhari urged the lawyers not to defend corrupt
politicians. What is your take on that?
No, what he said was that lawyers should not
use the practice of their profession to stifle or
slow down the war against corruption. And for
me, what I understood him to be saying is that
lawyers should not do anything that will
deliberately stop, delay or serve as an encour
agement to those who are corrupt. That is, if
somebody is brought to court, he or she should
undergo his or her trial. Don’t start to take ob
jections, file applications, and all those things.
That is my own understanding of his statement
because under the law, those who are charged
to court have the right to be defended;
otherwise, it will be jungle justice.
How then do you see the suggestion for setting
up of special court made up of incorruptible
judges for speedy trial of corrupt public officers?
I have never been a student or an advocate of
special court. During the time of the military,
special courts were set up for failed banks. By
so doing, the money that should have been given
to the judiciary to improve the condition of court
environment was used to rent places and
equipped them with modern gadgets. After the
courts wound up, where are the gadgets? What I
think they should do is to deploy electronic
recording gadgets to courts to fast tract their
proceedings. Besides, I don’t want us to send a
signal that will condemn other judges when they
have not been tried for anything. If you select a
few judges and give them a special place, what
you are saying is that the rest are corrupt. So, it
may be counterproductive. Instead, courts should
be automated for speedy delivery of justice. One
of the things causing delay is writing
proceedings in long hand. You can’t expect
judiciary to delivery a 21st century service when
judges are given 18th century equipment to work
with.
In the renewed anti-graft war, how do you think
judiciary can be sanitized?
More often than not, people raise all manners of
allegations without concrete facts to back them
up. Those who genuinely believe that somebody
has compromised his position as a judge should
be ready to say it all. But if you just base all
these allegations on assumption, I don’t think it
is good enough. The fight against corruption
must be seen as a complex whole. The point of
arrest and interrogation of an accused is as
important as the time they are taken to court. If
you do a wishy-washy investigation, even if you
take the accused before his enemies on the
bench, he will go scot-free. So, our security
agencies must desist from newspaper trial. Lack
of proper investigation is the seed of failure.
After a thorough investigation, then cases should
the given to those who are honest and
competent to prosecute. If the person
prosecuting is compromised, that’s the end of it.
So, it is a long chain. Prosecution doesn’t start
and end with the judiciary. It is like a relay race,
batons are being changed from apprehension,
investigation, prosecution, trial and witnesses.
We should encourage institution of whistle
blowers. Anywhere in the world, security
agencies buy information. It is not everybody
that wants to blow whistle without some
inducements. Tackling corruption is not just
about making arrest. Thorough investigation
must be done. So, anti-corruption agencies must
be strengthened in terms of manpower and so
forth.
Then, what do you see to the idea of merger of
some of these agencies?
I am indifferent. It may be necessary perhaps to
save some cost in terms of overhead. If you look
at the law that set up the ICPC and EFCC, they
are supposed to do different things. ICPC is
actually anti-corruption organization, EFCC is
anti-money laundering. The professional
background of chairmen of these agencies also
matters. Judges are put at the helms of the
ICPC and judges play by the rules. Policemen
don’t really care. That is the difference. It is
almost a common knowledge that Nigeria police
use extra legal means to obtain confession from
suspects. A judge will not do that.
But do you take cognizance of the fact that
financial crime is difficult to tract?
But you don’t need to torture people to obtain
confession. You only need to be properly trained
on how to do your investigation. ICT experts are
the people needed in such organizations not just
policemen or ordinary investigators. For the
London MET, there are people who have PhDs in
investigations. Once you unearth solid facts and
you confront a man with it, he won’t have any
choice. What they do is forensic investigation.
Here in Nigeria, CCTVs were installed in Abuja,
but they are not working. I learnt the thing cost
almost half a billion dollars and nobody is not
raising any issue about it. These are things that
would assist security agencies in tracking down
criminals. Investigating corruption is not a tea
party. Until we get proper forensic investigations,
we won’t achieve much in corruption war. You
can’t use police conventional method to do
investigation; it won’t work.
Do you also share in the opinion that menace of
corruption need to be dealt with in order to move
the nation forward?
Already, the body language of the President has
sent proper signals. But can he do it alone? He
is not going to work with angels. I have always
maintained that we cannot leave the issue of
corruption in the hands of security agencies.
All of us must be involved. We must all buy into
anti-corruption war; otherwise, there won’t be
much progress. If there are no givers, there
won’t be takers. So, the givers must desist from
giving. All of us must make up our minds that
we are not going to make corruption to thrive.
Nigerians encourage corruption by our attitude,
by what we say and what we do. We all like
cutting corners. If your child doesn’t do well in
JAMB, you want to push him in by all means and
displace other people who are well qualified.
That is corruption. It is not only when you take
money that is corruption.
Is that the reason why there is skepticism in
some quarters that the anti-corruption fight of
the administration may not go far because of the
people around the president?
The way the man is and with his determination, I
think those who are around him will be weary,
especially when one or two people are made a
scapegoat. He must be prepared to exercise
total political willpower to say no to corruption.
What role should lawyers play in the renewed
anti-graft war?
One, lawyers must live by the rules of their
profession. If we live by the ethic of our pro
fession, lawyers would be in the vanguard of the
war against corruption. We should not see
ourselves as mere instrument in the hands of
clients. We should see ourselves as having duties
to the society. We must not use our profession
as sabotage against corruption. It is legitimate
for us to get briefs, to take cases from anybody
but we must do it real professionally. And, of
course, we must also be imbued with our own
moral code. We must act as agents of stamping
out corruption.
What does the government needs to put in place
to achieve its target of eradicating corruption in
the system?
It is a whole lot. It is not just about arresting
people; there must be total re-orientation.
Nigerians have to change their orientation. We
must all believe that this corruption thing is
killing us in installment. The day an average
person on street appreciate that when a road
contract is inflated, it has tendency to cause
damage to his family, the will we start to get
there. But if we just see it as government’s fight,
we have missed it. We must also take the battle
to our young stars. Our professional bodies must
also buy into the war. If you are an engineer, you
must make up your mind that you are not going
to bribe to get contract. If you are accountant,
you are not going to audit an account
There is a long list of high profile cases that
have not been concluded and many of those
allegedly indicated are still walking freely on the
street. Why is it so?
They will be walking freely because you are
going back to the issue of investigation. In most
cases, allegations are made and blown in the
media. And people don’t ask critical questions.
We should ask critical questions. You say
somebody stole N20 billion. What was his
source? What is the total money in that
department? May be the total budget of his
department is not even up to N1 billion. So, the
man will walk freely if he has done nothing
wrong. I give you an example. Years ago, EFCC
charged some officials of Zamfara State
Government to court, the SSG and some
commissioners. The SSG by their own system
was living in his own house. So, he was entitled
to certain basic things-generator, furniture and
things like that. EFCC charged the man to court
for stealing the generator. They ordered
agricultural equipment and implements tractors
and things like that and were supplied on paper.
But EFCC charged the officials for stealing the
money with which those things were procured.
Of course, those charges couldn’t stand. But the
names of those individuals have been smeared in
the press. That is the kind of the things we are
talking about. We have to dissect these issues
properly. For me, I don’t feel good that those
who are corrupt are enjoying freedom.
The view I have held for more than 20 years ago
is that those who are found guilty of corruption
should be given Chinese treatment with death
penalty. It doesn’t matter to me the way it is
carried out. And I am happy that the NLC and
TUC have seen my point of view at the long last.
It is not anything novel that I have proposed.
This is something I have remained consistent
with for more than 20 years.
I all my lectures, I have always maintained that
death should be the penalty for corruption
because of the endemic nature of it and the im
punity with which people do it.